Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we reviewed the letter comprising the epigraphs of Part Four, with one old friend urging another to stop interfering in things above his pay grade. This week, we examine Interludes 12 and 13, taking place in Kholinar and Narak respectively.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Interlude I-12: Lhan
Point of View: Lhan, an ardent
Setting: Kholinar
Symbology: Double Eye of the Almighty, Palah, Ishar
IN WHICH an ardent takes on a new protégé; she is less than amenable to the guidance he attempts to give her; the character and conduct of the queen are called into question; wasted food is contemplated; the character and conduct of the Alethi elite are called into question; the Almighty and the Heralds are called into question; a choice is made; the queen is condemned as all the ten fools; a protégé is executed; riots begin.
Quote of the Interlude
“Don’t you even wonder?” she asked, staring at those piles of refuse, rain pattering just beyond. “Don’t you stop to think about the cost of your gluttony?”
“Cost?” he asked. “I told you nobody starves because we—”
“I don’t mean the monetary cost,” she whispered. “I mean the spiritual cost. To you, to those around you. Everything’s wrong.”
“Oh, it’s not that bad,” he said, settling down.
“It is. Lhan, it’s bigger than the queen, and her wasteful feasts. It wasn’t much better before that, with King Gavilar’s hunts and the wars, princedom against princedom. The people hear of the glory of the battle on the Shattered Plains, of the riches there, but none of it ever materializes here.
“Does anyone among the Alethi elite care about the Almighty anymore? Sure, they curse by his name. Sure, they talk about the Heralds, burn glyphwards. But what do they do? Do they change their lives? Do they listen to the Arguments? Do they transform, recasting their souls into something greater, something better?”
“They have Callings,” Lhan said, fidgeting with his fingers. Digiting, then? “The devotaries help.”
She shook her head. “Why don’t we hear from Him, Lhan? The Heralds said we defeated the Voidbringers, that Aharietiam was the great victory for mankind. But shouldn’t He have sent them to speak with us, to counsel us? Why didn’t they come during the Hierocracy and denounce us? If what the Church had been doing was so evil, where was the word of the Almighty against it?”
Pai is, apparently, the only thoughtful person in Kholinar. She’s asking a lot of the right questions, but no one in the palace or the monastery wants questions. They just want to be comfortable luxurious, to enjoy their privileges without any more effort than necessary.
I’ll refrain from drawing real-world parallels…
Commentary
For such a short chapter, there are a lot of little things I can’t help noticing. The first one is Lhan’s suave contempt for his monarch.
“Queen Aesudan likes to feel that those around her are refined. It makes her feel refined by association.”
I can’t read that as anything other than an implication that the queen is not refined, whether it’s in her speech, or her tastes, or… what. But it reeks of condescension. Then there’s this bit:
“…The queen figures that if she treats her ardents well, it will buy her favor with the One who makes the storms, so to speak. Nice food. Nice robes. Fantastic quarters. Lots of free time to do whatever we want. We get these things as long as she thinks she’s on the right path.”
The cynicism behind this attitude drops my jaw—mostly because the opening paragraphs made me want to like Lhan, but this makes me want to flog him out of the monastery, and all the rest of the sycophants with him. (It reminds me of the quip, “When you ask yourself, ‘What would Jesus do?’ don’t forget that upending tables and chasing people with whips are real possibilities.”) These ardents are that kind of people: they take advantage of the queen’s bad behavior, uneasy conscience, and lame theology to make sure they have an easy, luxurious life. They certainly can’t be bothered to consider how their wastefulness might actually affect other people, nor how it must look to the people of the city. I’d say it’s hard to believe they think they can get away with it indefinitely, but you can look around IRL and see it happen.
What really blows my mind about it, though, is that Navani left Kholinar completely in Aesudan’s hands, with the claim that “the queen is sufficiently endowed with the requisite skills to hold Alethkar.” Did she really think Aesudan was doing a fine job? Did Navani not care about this kind of behavior? Pai certainly seems to indicate that it’s not a new thing, so Navani must have seen it. Did she simply lack the authority as the “dowager queen” to do anything about it? Or did she decide that what little she could do in Kholinar was insignificant compared to what was happening out on the Shattered Plains?
I don’t have any good answers for this. Perhaps, compared with an approaching Desolation, a greedy and debauched queen in Kholinar is insignificant—but the stability of the kingdom isn’t, and that’s what’s about to go up in flames. It will be very interesting to see what condition things are in by the time Our Heroes are able to check in on Kholinar. Between the riots and the Everstorm, I expect it will be a right mess.
One other unrelated comment: I don’t know that this is surprising, really, but it occurs to me that the people of Roshar don’t know that Honor has been Splintered. I mean, they probably don’t know about Adonalsium and Shards and all that anyway, but they did know about Honor and Cultivation to some extent. And they don’t know that he’s gone.
Stormwatch
This Interlude takes place sometime during the Weeping, but obviously before the arrival of the Everstorm. So, somewhere between Day 2 and Day 14 of the expedition; in terms of countdown, somewhere between 7 and -5. In fact, this could be happening at the same time as the Epilogue.
Ars Mechanica
There’s a lovely section describing the art, architecture, and geological features of the monastery, palace and city. Shallan’s lesson on cymatics with Kabsal comes irresistibly to mind, as he demonstrated for her the way Kholinar’s layout—including the windblades—were created by vibration. (Methinks this may also apply to the Shattered Plains, from a different angle… but I don’t think I want to explore the possible physics just now.)
Anyway, Brandon innocently opens this descriptive passage with the Circle of Memories, then proceeds to the city, and (after some conversation) to the palace’s grand eastern hall. It’s all nice and world-build-y, and that’s about it… until you remember it when you’ve finished the book.
They passed into the Circle of Memories, a round room with ten lamps on the walls, one for each of the ancient Epoch Kingdoms. An eleventh lamp represented the Tranquiline Halls, and a large ceremonial keyhole set into the wall represented the need for ardents to ignore borders, and look only at the hearts of men… or something like that. He wasn’t sure, honestly.
It’s the storming Kholinar OATHGATE!! All the nice details about the lamps, the ten kingdoms, the eleventh lamp, the keyhole… GAAAAHHHHHH!
On a quieter note, there are a couple of interesting connections to be made.
One, the Circle of Memories is part of the monastery—meaning that in all probability, the ardents live in facilities originally built for the local contingent of Knights Radiant. How ironic, that those who preach the betrayal of the Knights Radiant should live in their home and betray all that Vorinism originally stood for.
Two, Lhan identifies the eleventh lamp as representing the Tranquiline Halls, but we know it takes you to Urithiru. Is this merely misinterpretation, or is it forgotten history? I know we’ve speculated that the Tranquiline Halls might be Ashyn, and that for some reason humans had to leave that planet and so migrated to Roshar. It might even be that the Tranquiline Halls story has its origin in the Splintering of Adonalsium and the withdrawal of Honor and Cultivation (with some humans for seed??) from Yolen to Roshar. But… could it be that at some point, Urithiru itself was overthrown by the forces of Odium, who destroyed the Oathgate links, and shattered the Plains in an attempt to destroy the last access? Or that perhaps the Radiants had to flee Urithiru, and themselves locked the Oathgates and shattered the Plains in their attempt to destroy the last one behind themselves, locking the destroyers in Urithiru? Either of those could be a plausible origin for the story of the Tranquiline Halls that are inaccessible in the flesh, but must someday be recovered. Just sayin’…
I’m sure y’all will have plenty of darts to throw at that theory, but it really had to be said.
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds
Food. There is lots of food in this chapter, most of it rotting. But why is it that the best-sounding food is always Herdazian?
Heraldic Symbolism
Palah, the Scholar, may be here to supervise Pai’s evaluation of the queen’s conduct and her careful explanations thereof. I like that idea, anyway. Ishar… well, Ishar the Priest could be here for the ardentia in general. Or he could be here mockingly, as what the ardentia are only pretending to be. Or he could be here for Pai’s concern for theological truth. Looks like he’s got lots of reasons to be here!
Interlude I-13: A Part to Play
Point of View: Eshonai
Setting: Narak
Symbology: Listener, Battar
IN WHICH a voice still screams; one sister has changed, and one has not; battle plans are discussed; Venli knows too much, and is hiding the source of her knowledge; Eshonai is discomforted, but moves on with her work.
Quote of the Interlude
“The Alethi will come,” Venli said, strolling at Eshonai’s side and absently bringing energy to her fingers and letting it play between two of them. Venli smiled often while wearing this new form. Otherwise, it didn’t seem to have changed her at all.
Eshonai knew that she herself had changed. But Venli… Venli acted the same.
Something felt wrong about that.
It’s a weird combination of heart-breaking and comforting to read the places where Eshonai’s instinct remembers what her mind can’t. Some part of her, when it’s not screaming in terror, seems able to recognize the inconsistencies in what she observes. I don’t know whether or not I should hold onto the hope that someday the old Eshonai will win out.
Commentary
Preparations.
Eshonai is sorting out her new stormforms, getting ready for the upcoming confrontation. We didn’t know it the first time through, of course, but the part the noobs have to play will be to sing. I suppose the odds are no worse for them than for the ones doing the fighting, but it still seems a bit cold, looking ahead. Those who are new to a fighting form will stand, sing, and get slaughtered without even attempting to fight back. Except that, of course, the singing will be their form of attack. So there’s that, I guess.
This Interlude is just sad and disturbing. And creepy. What is with Venli? The only options I can see are that she’s worn stormform before, but no one saw it; or that she’s been wearing a form of the old gods that no one else recognized as such (perhaps the outward appearance was exactly like nimbleform?); or that she’s been in direct contact with one of the old gods. I’m going with those as being in order of least to most likely. She just knows things she shouldn’t, and she’s way, way too comfortable with stormform.
That whole thing about how the new form hasn’t changed her at all? Yeah, that’s not eerie or anything. The only question is, how long has this—whatever it is—been going on? I can’t help thinking that it’s been years in the process.
Stormwatch
This chapter takes place on the same day as Chapter 75, when Kaladin & Shallan climbed out of the chasms to find Dalinar staging his army. This is, for what it’s worth, the last day before the Weeping begins.
Sprenspotting
No spren are actually mentioned, but there’s the scene where Venli is walking along, letting “energy” play between her fingers. Is that a spren, or is it just energy? Both? Something more? Bah. I have a feeling that most of my questions about the Listener “old gods” spren will not be answered. Maybe I’ll be wrong; it’s happened before.
Heraldic Symbolism
Only one Herald guards this chapter: Battar, the Counselor, wise & careful. Is this because Venli is acting as Counselor to Eshonai? Or is this one of those mockeries, where Battar is watching while Venli plays a deceitful and manipulative Counselor instead of a wise one?
There. Two very short Interludes with Implications this week; next week, we’ll dive into a very looooong Interlude, as we rejoin King Taravangian on his “mission of mercy” to Jah Keved.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and is eagerly looking forward to JordanCon next month with some of the good folks here.
The queen’s attitude is rather like a “new rich” or a rich merchant’s daughter that was able to marry beyond the means she expected. This is not the attitude of a noble woman who has had privilege and training her whole life.
Yet we have not heard anyone refer to the queen really. Other than she’s there with Elkonar’s son.
Where are the Bluefingers of this world? Where are the chancellors getting things done if the queen “can’t be bothered.”
HOW??? Did she fall apart that fast without her mother-in-law looking over her shoulder?
Is she being influenced by Odium? Has she been struck with a seizure that removed her wits?
When will our heroes get word of the riots in Book 3? And how long will it take to fix the damage the queen has caused.
I guess scholar form is really a bad thing. Which makes me sad. We need to change the name. Some stories like to make a teeter-totter comparison between smarts and compassion. I’ve never liked or believed in it.
Someone can be blindingly smart, and still be compassionate.
Someone can be blindingly stupid, and have no compassion.
It’s been awhile since I’ve commented, but I wanted to talk about I-12. It just feels like Sanderson is hiding more than the Oathgate in this interlude. I’ve been wondering if Pai is a worldhopper. or if she was a member of one of the secret societies on Roshar. My first thought was that she is from Sel because of her name, but on the other hand, she acts a bit like a Terriswoman. Anybody else have any thoughts? Any WoBs?
I think that the idea of a civil revolt just didn’t cross Navani’s mind. The idea of people bringing down monarchy is a very new one. Yeah, pesants revolted during the middle ages, but most of them were just slaughtered. So much so that the world was horrified when they French actually executed their king during their revolution.
So Navani just left. She probably figured that, worst case scenario, they’d have to create a few popular policies to calm down the peasants once the war was over. And really, if the Everstorm hadn’t hit, a revolt on Kholimar wouldn’t have been such a big deal. Even if it spread to the entire kingdom, the army is still pretty much self-suficient out there in the shattered plains. They could wrap up the war, then calmly restore peace.
I-12 Interlude – Stormwatch: Dalinar discovers in Chapter 87, the first day in Urithiru, that Kholinar is in a state of revolt…. so we know that the interlude happened sometime before Day 14 of the expedition… maybe even on that day, since Dalinar likely would have heard news of the revolt while they were still crossing the shattered plains with Navani and all of the scribes that he had along.
I-12 Interlude – Stormwatch: Dalinar gets word that Kholinar is in revolt when they start reaching out to other kingdoms to warn them about the Everstorm. This is during the first day in Urithiru (day 14 of the expedition?). I’d expect that Dalinar would have been using spanreeds during the expedition, and he hadn’t heard of any revolt prior to day 14. Based on that, its very possible that Kholinar’s revolt, and the events of I-12 happened on the same day of the battle in the Shattered Plains.
I love the interludes. I totally missed the oathgate here until being clued in by past comments. My ongoing theory is that the scholarform with “ambitions innate” or something like that explains Venli’s discovery of stormform and also explains how they discovered a whole series of forms in a very short timeframe. I think it must appear roughly the same as nimbleform.
@1 It is interesting that many of the *extremely* intelligent characters feature less morality. Taravangian’s smart days as explained next week, Venli, debatably Jasnah. Navani and Shallan are very intelligent, and so is Kaladin, and they are not portrayed as without morals. The scholars that interact with Navani are sort of portrayed as bumbling, absent-minded professor types besides the old lady who dislikes Shallan’s Urithiru theory.
I’ve often wondered about Aesudan too, why Navani left her and if there’s any irony or deception in her statement about the queen’s capabilities. Perhaps Navani is just that absorbed in her research. Maybe she thinks a little domestic trouble would shake Elhokar out of his funk and cause him to reconsider his priorities.
Or maybe Aesudan’s a foreigner who lacks a deep understanding of Alethi politics and Vorinism. Her understanding of Vorin morality and theology is simplistic, even childlike. If you take a look at her name, it doesn’t seem to follow the (near symmetrical) pattern of most Vorin nobles.
@1 Braid_Tug
The epigraph that mentions scholarform doesn’t make it sound like that it’s a form of Odium, so much as the temptation to pursue knowledge amorally is very strong. It could be that curiosity in Listener society is viewed as taboo. These are people who had to give up wits and knowledge to escape slavery, after all. They sheltered in ignorance out of necessity, but that same ignorance is causing some of them to repeat the old mistakes.
@3 Tadeu Aratel
Political consequences of Elhokar’s actions do cross Dalinar’s mind, and he’s admittedly a bad politician. He sees how fragile the kingdom is and even points out that the founder’s child is one of the weakest points in a kingdom’s history. I don’t see why Navani shouldn’t have realized that Aesudan’s neglect of Alethkar could have been benign. Perhaps she’s not being truthful in her remarks on the queen’s abilities.
Just thought I’d comment on the splintering of Honor: The people of Roshar as a whole generally don’t know, Dalinar definitely does (and I feel like he’s shared this with some people. Navani, at least, although I think they edited that part of his visions before publishing them). To quote from Dalinar’s vision: “I am. Was. God. Odium killed me”
@7 It could be there’s a fair amount of knowledge that’s inherently dangerous to Listeners. As if knowledge of how an atomic bomb works risks spontaneously setting one off. In that case, I’d side-eye the hell out of physicists, too.
@2. I also think that Pai may have been a member of one of the secret societies. Perhaps a Ghostblood? On the otherhand, I do not think she was a worldhopper.
Until Eshonai shows up alive again, I will consider her to be dead. By dead, I mean dead in any form. Brandon has stated that he could/would have flashback scenes from a character who is dead in the story’s main timeline. It would be very sneaky of Brandon if by dead, he did not mean physically dead; but rather, spiritually dead. One could argue that the Eshoni who began the series is dead replaced by a “new” Eshoni in Stormform. For those who read WoT, something akin to what Lanfear said to Perrin that some people believe happen to channelers who are turned.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Didn’t Jasnah consider assassinating Aesudan in the prologue? Even if she changed her mind she seemed to think that Aesudan could be trouble.
WRT Navani’s claim that Aesudan was capable of running Kholinar, my best guess is that Navani saw Aesudan as beneath danger, as a woman so wrapped up in her own pleasures that she wouldn’t be likely to do anything that would seriously destabilize the kingdom. She could be left in charge and the kingdom would essentially keep going on inertia until Elokhar could get back.
@11 You beat me too this, not only did Jasnah consider assassinating Aesudan but it is implied she went to her meeting with the assassin carrying a letter with instructions to kill her. She ultimately didn’t go through with it but it is safe to say she more than considered it.
@@@@@ 12, I would also like to add that maybe Navani counted on the Ardents to try and guide Aesudan along, and to mitigate her excesses when and where possible. On my first read of this chapter, I remember thinking that it seems like the ardents have just given up trying, and are just going along with things because it was easier than constantly trying to persuade this “new rich” queen to the “right” path.
crapaflapnasti @2 – I can’t find evidence that anyone has asked Brandon any questions about Pai. Weird, for such an obsessive fandom. And I’m also wondering if there’s something else hidden in this Interlude. The Oathgate was so out-in-the-open sneaky; will something else crop up in the next book that we’ll look back and realize was hidden in plain sight here?
ajh @@.-@ & 5 – Rats. I meant to go search for that comment from Dalinar, but then I forgot. It’s in chapter 87, which is Day 9 of the expedition… Day 0 of the countdown. If we assume that Kholinar communicated with Dalinar about the riots as soon as they could get through, so that he heard about it immediately when they got spanreeds set up in Urithiru, that means that Pai was executed the morning of Expedition Day 8 (one day left on the countdown) and the riots started the evening before the battle began. So… the bulk of the events of this chapter likely happened on Expedition Day 7, while the army was marching.
Incidentally, the execution and the onset of rioting happened the same day Kaladin received that unproductive visit from Elhokar.
@several re: Jasnah planning to assassinate Aesudan – It’s sort of implied, and clearly assumed by Liss, that her target was going to be Aesudan… but it’s not stated outright by Jasnah. It could be that Jasnah placed Liss among Aesudan’s servants to spy, and to be in a position to assassinate someone else. Just… it’s a possibility, and we never hear about it again, though it was seven years ago now. We don’t even have any idea why Jasnah would have wanted her sister-in-law killed, if she did, so… there’s just not quite enough info. I’d hold that assumption lightly.
@9 noblehunter
I’d say there’s a decent probability that in a world where ideas have lives of their own, some knowledge might be inherently dangerous. Maybe humanity’s origins shield them from this somewhat, since the Listeners are more plugged into Roshar’s ecosystem?
@11 birgit
Yeah, Jasnah didn’t seem to think very highly of Aesudan. In the wake of Gavilar’s assassination, there’s almost a sort of Kholin brain drain, with Jasnah studying abroad, Dalinar helping Elhokar on the Shattered Plains, and just Navani left in Kholinar to keep an eye on things. Then, Navani leaves.
It makes you wonder what happened to Liss. Did her arrangement with Jasnah end? If not, where is she and what is she doing now? What happened to all of Jasnah’s old connections when she was running the family’s intelligence network?
@14 dashardie
I don’t think Navani puts much stock in Ardents and religion, given her willingness to break cultural and religious taboos quite easily.
@16 Connections to spren certainly seem to have greater effects on Listeners than humans.
@@@@@ 16, good point about Navani not putting much stock in religion or the Ardentia, although I was thinking more about the artifabrian/soulcaster ardents than anything, since she does seem to have a bit more respect for them.
@@@@@ several – as Alice pointed out, it has been 7 years since we last saw Liss, so….who knows where she got off to. Maybe Jasnah re-assigned her, or her instructions were to simply watch and report – then, since Jasnah died, maybe she took another contract and got out of Kholinar. Too many variables and not enough info, but this would make a good question to ask Brandon if it hasn’t been asked before: Where is Liss and have we seen the last of her?
Until recently, I’d thought that cymatics was something made up for the book – then I ran across a video of someone actually doing it.
The more I think about it, the more I convince myself that the missing information about Aesudan is the key to realizing what’s going on with her.
Here’s what we know about her:
She has a cruel streak. She laughs at Dalinar while he’s drunk at the treaty celebration during the opening of WoK. She wastes food that farmers are sending at great personal cost to support the war effort.
She is either very ignorant or very reckless. Her understanding of Vorinism seems to boil down to: Ardents = god’s representatives on Roshar, where happy Ardents = happy god. She doesn’t seem to know or care about Callings or moral teachings. She cancels the Beggar’s Feast, the importance of which is impressed upon us very early in WoK. All of these things occur while she’s living a conspicuous life of luxury.
She likely doesn’t have honest advisers. With all the other members of the Kholin family gone from the capital, it looks like the queen is surrounded only by those Ardents and nobles who are willing to play her game. She seemingly has no access to honest counsel.
She’s literate. We know she would be her husband’s primary scribe if she was with him, so we can’t assume she’s completely uneducated.
What we would want to know to understand her:
Who is she and where does she come from? How did she come to marry Elhokar and whose choice was the marriage? What did Gavilar think of her and his son? Is she working for someone else?
Maybe Navani was just lying to herself so she could go to Dalinar? People do that sort of thing all the time. There is civil revolt to be concerned over but all the “royal” action was happening on the plains. That is where the various houses are really fighting it out and civil revolt may not have even been considered.
Eshonai reminds me a bit of Marsh at this time, in that the longer he remained a Steel Inquisitor, the more difficult it was for him be anything else. Yet in the end, Marsh retained enough of himself to do what needed to be done when it counted the most.
I could see Eshonai’s story arch going something like this, although I would love to see her make a full recovery.
I rarely post but always read this blog every Thursday. This chapter is one of my favorites.
In terms of what faction Pai belongs to, I have always thought it was Restares and the Sons (Daughters) of Honor with one of their goals being the restoring of the power of the church. As Alice quotes, Pai wants to know: “Why didn’t [the Heralds] come during the Hierocracy and denounce us? If what the Church had been doing was so evil, where was the word of the Almighty against it?
Amaram, in his letter to Restares, “It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world in crisis.”
I also have a pet theory that Restares will turn out to be some high ranking Ardent.
A few thoughts/theories (with my usual disclaimer about theories: don’t hold very tightly to theories based on as little data as we have on these, or you’re likely to be disappointed):
NOTE: There may be spoilers for Mistborn: Secret History in this post. If you’re spoiler-sensitive and haven’t read that yet, you may want to skip everything after (and including) the Eshonai/Venli portion of it.
On the potential of a secret society influencing the rioting: The turmoil/chaos in Alethkar is certainly reminiscent of what Taravangian did to Jah Keved. While what Pai says leads me to believe she’s simply very devout in her Vorinism, I can’t exclude the possibility that she isn’t either actively working for Taravangian (or another group interested in sowing chaos in Alethkar) nor that she’s been lead to do what she does by someone with those goals.
On Eshonai/Venli: One thing that Mistborn: Secret History seems to me to make clear is that people – either naturally or through their actions/choices – create a connection to shards. I wonder (and this is simple conjecture on my part) whether Venli hasn’t created that type of connection to Odium – perhaps out of hatred for her sister, for being so awesome? Jealousy seems like a good source for hatred, personally.
Another thing that M:SH made clear is that Kelsier was able to speak to the mad – people with “cracked” mental states – because that allowed for greater shardic influence (or at least, that was what I understood). If – and there’s nothing in the text that supports this – Venli was ‘cracked’ in some way, and was already connected to Odium, that could be the reason why she didn’t seem changed – she was already significantly under Odium’s influence, already (potentially) hearing the whispers of the Listener gods, and already doing as they desired, and could have been doing so even while in one of the five standard forms.
On a related note, re: the Nahel Bond: This Connection is somewhat related to what I believe is the reason why certain people are chosen for the Nahel bond. Kaladin was connected to the winds – and thereby already had a connection to Windspren’s cousin Syl. That’s why Syl says “the winds knew you. They led me to you.” Kaladin had a (Natural?) connection to the winds, and therefore to Honor. Thus, Syl was led directly to him.
Meanwhile, the only other proto-knight that we have a reasonable amount of knowledge of is Shallan, who – due to her natural skill with drawing/art, had a connection to creation spren, the cousins of Cryptics (I know – it’s never clearly stated that such a relationship exists, but to me the relationship is clear – what is art but a not-quite-true depiction of reality?). And so, Pattern sets out looking for someone to bond, and is led – by that connection – to Shallan.
Incidentally, I am nearly convinced that the theory that spren actively try to “crack” those they bond in order to facilitate said bond is absolutely, 100% false. I have yet to see a spren act anything but terrified at threats to their bonded human, and the entire idea flies directly in the face of what Honor’s Intent seems like it should be.
Rather, I think it’s likely that bonded individuals become a focus of events, simply by their existence. Sort of the Ta’Veren of Roshar. (Not exactly that – it’s natural, and something you see even in our non-magical world: People with unusual talent/ability tend to have more things happen to them simply because they DO MORE STUFF!) And so, being at the crux of events, they are put under enormous strain, and that strain inevitably causes the cracks to appear. Those who suffer through those events and emerge more-or-less whole, with the cracks enabling greater magical throughput, are able to progress through oaths/self-actualization/whatever, and become true Knights Radiant. At least, that’s my best-guess theory right now, and I think it makes a great deal more sense than that a tiny splinter of HONOR is going around making people into slaves just so they can use them.
@10 AndrewHB
Interesting take on Eshonai’s evolution. I don’t think we’re quite meant to see or think of her as dead yet. The little voice inside of her that still struggles against Odium’s control is important and I don’t think Sanderson would dangle that potential in front of us without delivering on it.
Eshonai’s one of the most tragic characters in the series to date. She’s the war leader, but the ultimate advocate for peace and almost gets what she wants when Venli outmaneuvers her. Now, her sense of responsibility has put her in a position of leading her people back into bondage. I’m glad there are some clues that she’s actively trying to minimize the damage as best she can.
Extension of @24, since that post wasn’t already long enough (hehe): And the text is whited out due to references to Mistborn: Secret History.
Dalinar is probably next in terms of Radiants-we-know-something-about, and we can easily infer that he had a connection to Honor simply by the fact that the Stormfather is able to send him visions. His past…misdeeds…could easily have created cracks enough for him to be influenced enough to see the visions, and this connection could be what allows for him to be bonded as a Bondsmith.
I’m not complaining about the spoilers, but these comments are really making me want to read the new Mistborn books. I haven’t had the chance to do it since I finished WOR a couple months ago. I wanted to read Sword of Shannara first. Probably the wrong choice.
As far as the people on Roshar being aware of Honor being splintered, I always took their throwing around of the phrase “Honor is dead,” to be rather literal. And besides, if I remember correctly, doesn’t the Stormfather point blank tell Dalinar that Honor is dead?
@28 ascendant _warrior
From the way Dalinar takes the revelation of Honor’s death, it sounds like it’s not common knowledge. It sparks a major crisis of faith and causes Dalinar to question whether Honor can be god if he can be killed. Notably, he also doesn’t share this revelation with many others.
Pai is probably a true believer who is too naive to realize the consequences of her actions. The question is who thought it would be a good idea to send her to the queen.
@17 You are correct; the forms are completely dependent on the spren they bond. However, the only connection we’ve seen with humans are in traditional spren, not Odium spren. It could be that a human bonded to an Odium spren (assuming that is possible) also goes through a physical modification.
@31 Even the non-odium forms seem to mark much more drastic changes than under gone by Knights Radiant.
Can an Odium spren bond with a human? Is there a WoB on that? I sort of hope not since our heroes seem to be facing sufficiently long odds without people consciously allying with Odium.
@32 noblehunter
Based on various WoB, the door looks open for Listeners to become KR. I’d be surprised if it didn’t go the other way too and allow humans to be Voidbinders.
@32 Who said it needed to be conscious? It doesn’t seem like anyone has had a lot of say in what spren they get, apart from how the spren find them (their actions, etc). If an Odium spren finds a potential human partner, might they get bonded whether they want to or not? (Of course, there are not a lot of humans out in the Everstorm to bind with…)
@32: I suspect it has to do with the level to which the Human has a connection to Odium, but there’s nothing in the text as of yet that clarifies whether such a bond is possible or not. I’m unaware of any WoB that clarifies the question either.
Note: The Stormlight 3 status bar, which has been stuck resolutely on 44% for the last few months, has officially moved to 45%!
Halien @@@@@ 20 – good assessment of Aesudan’s character. Thank you. Meeting her first on the prologue through Jasnah’s eyes, I have always this feeling that Aesudan is a spoiled and ill-mannered though she was born to a high ranking family.
I don’t believe she comes from the merchant class. Elhokar was the most eligible bachelor in Roshar before he got married. Gavilar was king and of course Navani was queen. They had a say who Elhokar would marry. It has to be a good match. And since we know very little, I’ll say that the Kholins thought that Aesudan is a good match for Elhokar.
As readers, we know that Gavilar and Navani were wrong for approving that match. But, was Navani even a good match for Gavilar? Again, as readers we know that they had an unhappy marriage. So perhaps, if we give Aesudan the benefit of the doubt, she is acting that way because she is unhappy. Being married to Elhokar with his paranoia must be very hard.
Someone asked why Navani went to the Shattered Plains and left Kholinar. I believe Navani was just bored at Kholinar. Another reason is she still wanted Dalinar, and she went to the Shattered Plains to get what she wanted.
For Stormlight 3, I hope Brandon brings us to Kholinar. I hope Jashna or Shallan open the Oathgate at Kholinar. That way, they can easily travel back and forth. It will really be interesting to know what is going on at “home”.
Sometimes I wonder if there’s something wrong for me, I get way too attached to the interlude characters who die right away…
I really like both of these interludes: Eshonai’s is still heartbreaking but it’s intriguing to get a hint that something is up with Venli (and it makes it more tolerable that the Listeners as a whole were converted with such relative ease – it was an inside job!) Meanwhile, Lhan is horribly lazy and bad, but that’s what makes Pai’s actions all the better (even if those riots are probably going to cause more loss of life than Aesudan’s negligence). Personally, I hope she’s not affiliated with one of the secret societies, just because her action has more impact when it’s a sacrifice guided by personal ideology, not the plan of a larger group. But either way the result is the same, so it wouldn’t exactly ruin it for me if she was a secret agent of some kind.
And yeah, in hindsight it’s a really obvious Oathgate – so obvious that Dalinar makes the connection himself somewhere in the epilogue. It’ll be interesting to see how they open the Oathgate – Shallan was going to work on unlocking it at Urithiru, but it could be the unlocking might need to take place in Kholinar (although Jasnah tried that which is what led her to that conclusion that it’s locked, so…).
Is anyone else getting a sense from this interlude that Aesudan feels quite guilty or insecure? Why does she “[worry] that maybe the Almighty isn’t pleased with her” and try to buy favor with him? Then there’s that bit about having refined people around her to make herself feel more refined. Does she simply feel bad about her indulgence, or is there something more to make her guilty and insecure?
Like FenrirMoridin, I’m hoping that Pai is just a normal woman who was genuinely concerned for the queen and the kingdom and decided to do something about it – not a worldhopper or a member of a secret society. It made me sad in Elantris when Dilaf turned out to be the head of the demonic Dakhor monastery and part of a grand conspiracy, rather than just a genuinely convinced religious zealot. It sacrificed an interesting character for a plot with higher stakes, I think. With Pai, it seems like a similar situation, if a much less significant one.
But I do wonder how Pai got the job with Aesudan in the first place. Lhan makes several references to her “superiors”, and says that she was “assigned to the queen’s own retinue”, which makes it sound like Pai wasn’t the one trying for the job. (She does know a lot about Aesudan’s excess, though, which makes it sound like she was interested in it for some reason.) But what superiors would choose Pai to serve Aesudan if they knew anything about either’s personality? Surely there were plenty of other ardents who’d be happy to serve in such a cushy position? Perhaps Pai isn’t part of a conspiracy, but her superiors are – seeing her convictions, they maneuvered her into a situation where she would hopefully cause trouble.
As for Navani: She certainly seems to downplay the importance of Kholinar when she’s speaking to Dalinar in TWoK about why she left, saying “the truly important players inevitably make their way [to the Shattered Plains]”. Like ReaderAt2046, I get the feeling that Navani figures Aesudan isn’t clever/evil/incompetent enough to cause any real problems – Aesudan could keep herself occupied with indulgence if she wanted, and the kingdom would just putter along on its own.
@1 Braid_Tug: Dalinar has heard about the riots by the end of WoR – I suspect that’s part of why he tells Kaladin to go to Kholinar and help the people there. (Though I can’t imagine Kaladin being particularly good at quelling riots.)
@16 Halien: Perhaps Jasnah is now using her connections to deal with the Ghostbloods and other enemies. If Mraize is right, Jasnah has assassinated several Ghostbloods by now, and I doubt she did it personally.
@24 brovery: Reading your post, something occurred to me…Listeners don’t seem to need to “crack” like humans to bond with spren, as when they change forms. Is this a side effect of being closer to the Cognitive Realm? Or is something else going on?
@28 ascendant_warrior: Have we actually seen anyone other than Kaladin say “Honor is dead”, whether literally or not…? I did a quick search in both books for “honor is dead” and didn’t find anyone beyond Kaladin. Of course, thanks to Dalinar’s visions more people know the literal meaning, but I don’t see lots of Rosharans just throwing around the phrase.
@32 noblehunter: Yes.
But what does “bonding spren in the same way” mean? Does it just mean humans have a hard time surviving in a highstorm?
I suspect that the issue is that Aesudan is running things perfectly fine for the light eyes.
Have we ever seen that Navani cares at all for dark eyes? None of her staff of scholars are dark eyed. The only dark eye she interacts with on a regular basis is Kaladin. And even at the end, when Kaladin is in full Radiant burn, she refers to him as a Bridgeman.
Navani may be a nice person, but even our world is filled with well-intentioned people blind to class issues.
sheesania @39 – Pai requested the position, repeatedly, for a year.
@41 Wetlandernw: How did I miss that?! Sorry. So I guess Pai was indeed interested in working for Aesudan, but the question of why she was accepted is still open. Seeing what Lhan is like, I wonder if it could’ve been pure laziness that she wasn’t disqualified…but then, her superiors did know that she might cause problems.
39 Sheesania: That’s an excellent question, which I don’t know the answer to.
It seems like their physiology is such that they form an even closer bond with spren than a KR does – I mean, do we even know for sure exactly what happens to a spren that bonds a Listener? We don’t have any indication that it even still exists. It certainly doesn’t give them access to living spren shardblades. Do Listeners literally consume the spren they bond? So, if I had to guess at a theory right now, I’d say that Listeners were created as tools, intended to be adaptable to different uses depending on which spren they bonded. Sort of like a screwdriver – if you don’t need a flathead driver, just swap out the bit with a phillips or star or allen bit, and you’ve got what you need. Which theory, of course, begs the question of who created them, but since the theory itself involves so much conjecture, tangents would be even worse, so I’ll stop there.
At any rate, there are still plenty of things we get to discover in the next eight books. I can’t wait!
If humans get the Nahel bond (which gives surgebinding)
and Listeners get their bond (which changes their body),
what do Amians get?
@43: I don’t think the Listeners consume the spren. Seems like it would be a temporary joining of the two. Thus when a Listener wanted to change from Warrior to Mate form, they could trade with another going the other way.
The storm and the desire to change releases the bond in some way.
Otherwise, if joining to a Listener caused the spren’s death, the spren would avoid them.
I just spotted a new progress bar on Brandon Sanderson’s website for “Stormlight novella”! It’s at 1% right now.
@43 brovery: That’s a good question. I don’t think we’ve ever seen spren leaving dead Parshendi, like we’ve seen dead spren leaving chasmfiends. I read over Eshonai’s transformation scene and there don’t seem to be any clues there as to what happened to the warform spren she’d bonded before. (Though whatever happened could easily have been lost in all the drama of the storm.) We speculated before about Parshendi having gemhearts where bonded spren were trapped…but Eshonai says that they learned how to trap spren in gemstones from humans, which makes it sound like it wasn’t already naturally happening.
@44 ZenBossanova: Chasmfiends and other creatures might be getting bonds too that give them some kind of power – antigravity or something.
FenrirMoridin @38:
Personally, I strongly suspect that apart from doing whatever needs to be done to “unlock” Kholinar Oathgate, they’d also need to demolish the palace complex for it to work. I mean, transporting all these buildings every time the Gate is used would require exorbitant amounts of Stormlight, if it can be done at all. I also wonder if the chamber Lhan describes is really the control room for the Oathgate, or just a reverent replica of the same.
BTW, did anybody have a feeling that Lhan might be one of the ex-Heralds perverted into the opposite of what he was supposed to be? Ishar, perhaps, if Vasher/Zahel is not him. He was the “Priest”, right?
Eshonai’s chapter is so very poignant and captivating, and makes me hope for her eventual escape from Odium possession. Was the orange spren that pursues her and makes her hear screaming of her true self when it touches her mentioned here?
Sheesania @39:
The Listeners don’t have to crack to bond their spren… but they can only bond lesser spren who have neither sapience nor consciousness. And maybe because they are so attuned to the cognitive realm and to each other compared to humans, they don’t normally crack and thus couldn’t bond with higher, intelligent spren that confer surge-binding. If so, I bet that Eshonai will overcome that particular hurdle, because she’ll be broken well and good once she frees herself from the Storm spren that seems to be wholly antithetical to her nature _and_ would have compelled her to betray the Parshendi to their deaths/enslavement by Odium. And also, the Radiant spren might be more willing to try something new at this juncture.
BraidTug @45:
But mindless spren are already “dead”, aren’t they? And if they can become “more dead”, i.e. less complex, they don’t really have the ability to recognize and avoid this danger. I don’t think that they get destroyed/consumed by the Listeners, though. OTOH, it would be interesting to learn if the spren that have been bonded to a Listener are unchanged from their pre-bonding state when they are released… or if they grow in complexity through this association. Did the Listeners play a role in spren evolution towards intelligence?
I am curious about the significance of some of the chapter icons. There are those of obvious intent such as the shield and tower (khoch and linil) representing the chapters involving the Kholin family, or the spears for the Kaladin chapters, or shadesmar and then Pattern for the Shallan chapters. The double eye pattern of 4 circles on each side of the central two is used in most of the Interlude chapters in the WOK. It is sometimes connected with Vorinism and the Ardentia such as in the Geranid chapter, but not always. In this book, the Interlude chapters tend to be similar but feature swords instead of simple circles. There is a vertical long sword and 2 shorter swords on each side that pass through the opposite circles. The circles have also changed from filled (black) to open. That device is generally used in the chapter icons to designate either retrospective or current events. Since the double eye diagram of circles and connections is used to relate the Radiant orders, it is possible that the swords in the diagram represent individual Radiants. Thus the central (vertical) sword could represent Dalinar, the ostensible head of the Radiants, while the other 4 swords could represent Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, and Renarin. The progression from WOK to WOR in these Interlude chapter icons could then represent the development and activity of these Radiants. In this connection, the Kaladin icon features a long spear topped by a banner, with two shorter spears on each side – together with a round shield. The long spear could represent Kaladin and the shorter ones, those of his old Bridge 4 crew who will become his squires (Rock, Teft, Sigzil, and Lopen – replacing Moash). Any thoughts?
Isilel @47
I (personally) believe you hit the proverbial nail square on the head in your comments back to Sheesania and Braid_Tug.
However, I don’t think we have any evidence on what type of spren Listeners routinely bond. I’ve also been assuming it was the lesser spren, but assumptions have sent me down the wrong path more than once.
@47 Isilel: Is there anything indicating that somebody (whether Listener or human) would have to crack more to bond a sapient spren than a non-sapient spren? Why would the two require different levels of brokenness? Perhaps the sapient spren bestow larger powers and thus require a larger opening…Do we have any evidence of this, though? Like Ways said, we’re not even sure AFAIK that Parshendi only bond non-sapient spren. I guess there’s the Listener song: “Our minds are too close to their realm/That gives us our forms, but more is then/Demanded by the smartest spren,/We can’t provide what the humans lend,/Though broth are we, their meat is men.” To me, though, this doesn’t sound like an issue of brokenness – it sounds like it’s just about Parshendi being more Cognitive, and how the sapient spren want bonds with less Cognitive species (like humans).
I think it’s significant somehow that Listeners appear to be able to use dead Shardblades and Shardplate just as humans do – the Shards don’t seem to be less physical in any way. So at least in that situation Listeners can interact with spren just like humans do.
Also, I looked over the climactic battle with stormform Parshendi and noticed that the Alethi saw spren leaving Parshendi bodies – which IIRC they’d never seen before with Parshendi in other forms. “…they dropped dead and something wiggled out of their chests – small red spren, like tiny lightning, that zipped into the air and vanished.” So sapient spren do leave but non-sapient spren don’t? Or the Alethi just never noticed it? Here’s an idea…Maybe Parshendi bond with spren when they’re actually in the highstorm, changing forms, but afterwards the spren leave. The bond is only needed for the transformation process, and isn’t necessary to stay in the form. With stormform, however, you stay bonded to the spren, making you more open to Odium’s influence. Thoughts?
Sheesania @50:
Well, we didn’t hear anything about Listener bonding requiring _any_ level of brokenness and according to their song that you quoted, they can only bond with lesser, non-sapient spren. It seems to be something that all of them can do at a certain age, according to the ramblings of Eshonai’s and Venli’s mom from when Eshonai visited her for guidance… which makes me wonder about the children before they reach that point (and rite of passage which the first change seems to be). They can’t be in the slave form, surely?
Anyway, great observation about Alethi seeing the storm spren depart dead Stormform Parshendi, when they didn’t see anything comparable when Warrior forms died. It does indeed seem likely that non-Odium spren cause the form change during a storm and then depart, while Odium spren bond in order to activelly possess. But do normal spren themselves remain unaffected by the change that they trigger in Listeners, or do they also change? Basically, I feel that the Listeners are a link in spren evolution, which helps the spren t become more complex and reach the level of sapience that allows them to form Nahel bonds with humans. Hence broth to meat comparison and bitterness. But something is about to change in that respect and Eshonai is at the heart of it. IMHO, YMMV.
Spren differ in their visibility. Some can be visible or invisible, others are always visible or always invisible. The stormspren seem to be a visible type, while the warrior spren can be invisible.
Sheesania @50
Isilel @51
@47 Isilel: That’s a good point, they would probably need to at least remove some of the ornamentation, which Jasnah wouldn’t have been able to do earlier even with her political power as a princess. Of course with the rioting, demolishing the palace complex might not be much of a problem by the time our heroes get back to Kholinar…
Eshonai and possibly becoming a Radiant: if the brokenness required to be a Radiant is something trauma related than Eshonai definitely is much more broken after being possessed. But if Eshonai is a special case, a Listener who can get a Radiant bond, I think it might lie more with how she’s different in general: she’s a Listener who never felt like she belonged/was very different from the rest of the Listeners. And considering the nature of the Listeners as a race, that’s probably much rarer for them, due to the nature of the Rhythms and such.
It may simply not be higher spren preference to bond a Parshendi. What is in it for them?
But that bonding might give us unexpected advantages as well. (And what will the Aimians bring? I know… we don’t know anything about them yet)
And I don’t suspect for a moment that Eshonai is gone. At least, I really, really don’t want to believe it. If her book was next, I might believe it, but to have a flashback book be #5, when you died in #2? I don’t buy it. She is definitely alive.
@51 Isilel: My main point there was that if Listeners don’t have to crack to bond the non-sapient spren, then I don’t think they’d have to crack to bond sapient spren – I doubt there is a difference in brokenness requirements between the two spren types. The song indicates that they can’t bond sapient spren (though one could debate on whether it’s physically impossible, or the spren just don’t want it for some reason), but it doesn’t seem to say that level of brokenness is the reason (rather, it seems to say that Cognitive closeness is the problem). So I’d tentatively conclude that if Listeners don’t need to crack now to bond spren, they wouldn’t have to crack further to bond Radiant-spren. I’d imagine there are other requirements, however.
But Listeners assisting in spren evolution…that’s a very interesting idea. That would mean the Listeners may be necessary for there to be Radiants, that they might be in a sort of symbiotic relationship…So what would be the consequences if the Listeners were destroyed?
@52 birgit: Yeah, it’s possible that it’s just an issue of visibility. I don’t think we’ve seen Listeners in any forms beyond warform and stormform die, so we have a pretty small sample size.
@53 Ways: But even if the non-Odium spren leaves a Listener after the transformation, shouldn’t Eshonai’s Blade have screamed while she was bonded to a Voidspren? Perhaps the Blade doesn’t scream because the bonded spren isn’t a Radiant type.
@55 ZenBossanova: Yeah, the song I quoted could go either way: “more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend…” It doesn’t sound like it’s physically impossibly for the “smartest spren” to bond with Listeners; they’d just rather not because the Listeners can’t provide whatever it is the humans do. Though Syl does seem to tell Kaladin point-blank that Parshendi can’t become Surgebinders.
@many: I agree that we don’t know what happens to spren after a Listener takes on a form. We just don’t have enough info about them yet.
That said, here’s another theory (usual caveats that we don’t know enough to feel confident in any theory, etc.): When a Listener takes on a form, the spren gets to choose whether it sticks around or not – Odium spren stick around in order to provide a conduit to Odium’s influence, while most non-sapient spren just fly off once they’re free to do so.
In the case of a Listener becoming a Radiant, this could also be the case – the Listener takes on Radiant form, but the spren has to stick around for them to be able to make use of the surge-bindings. In the past, they haven’t bothered, because Listeners don’t give the radiant-spren the requisite sapience for them to WANT to do so. Eshonai could be different, and become the first Listener Radiant. (I wonder what radiant-form Listener would look like. Hmmm…..)
As an addendum, it could also be that Listeners can take on a Radiant-form, but in order for the magic to actually permeate them to the point where they can actively surgebind, they have to be “broken.” Just a random thought, there.
On a related topic, I’ve always felt this particular epigraph is very important:
Melishi resolved to destroy the Voidbringers, but then presented a different strategem. So he was going to destroy them, but then changed his mind and did something else. Take away their ability to bond spren? Break the bond they had with spren? Was this when the Listeners became the Parshmen? Was that also when they became slaves, or did that happen later? Or did this have anything to do with Listeners at all?!?!
My current working theory for what this is going on about is that the Bondsmiths forged a bond between the Voidbringers (Parshmen) and the Knights Radiant. It’s that bond that will allow for the spren to begin bonding with – and thereby creating Radiants from – the Listeners. I don’t hold this theory very dear, but I can’t help but think there’s something very important here – not least because it’s the last epigraph included from the in-world book Words of Radiance.
Perhaps he simply broke their bond, enmass, with Odium.
Or more likely, bonded them with boring-spren (I mean, the kind we see the Parshendi have at first), that are harmless in a war. Once they are out of the way, the rest of the war is simplier to deal with.
@58 brovery: Perhaps Melishi’s actions had something to do with the Listeners’ escape from their gods? But I keep wondering about it being “related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties“. Why the Heralds? And what divine duties? They’re supposed to guide and teach the people in the midst of a Desolation, lead the Radiant orders, and follow the Voidbringers back to the Tranquiline Halls to fight them there, and there are probably some others too we aren’t aware of. What could Melishi’s actions have to do with the nature of those duties?
Also, what’s the deal with “that night” offering a different stratagem? Did it just happen to occur to him then, or was there something magically significant about the night? Was he “hurried” just because he’d been planning to destroy the Voidbringers tomorrow, or because he’d miss a magical window of opportunity? I especially wonder this because of how Dalinar (our current Bondsmith) has visions only at particular times. Anyways, they’re all questions we can’t answer, but they’re interesting to think about…
There has been a lot of talk about sentient vs non sentient spren, and who they can bond and why they can bond them. I would propose the following: The Aimian Axies is trying to collect descriptions about all types of spren. What if he is trying to find correlations between the two groups of spren? My idea is that the mindless spren are simply undeveloped thinking spren, like spren tadpoles. The Parshendi listened song says that “Our minds are too close to their realm/That gives us our forms, but more is then/Demanded by the smartest spren,/We can’t provide what the humans lend,/Though broth are we, their meat is men.” I am interpreting this as spren perhaps incubate inside the Parshendi (and perhaps other life forms on Roshar) and then use the connection they gained through the minds of the Listeners to sort of pull themselves further into the Physical realm. They now need NATIVE Rosharans (not Aimians or Shin) to bond with, and that will get them to the next level in their development.
Did this first interlude remind anyone else of Martin Luther nailing the papers to the door of the church